Re: R.i.p.

RIP a great french artist too .. Hector Zazou..
Lots of collaboration with various underground projects.
60 yo .. too early again sad

Re: R.i.p.

kirmes wrote:
darder wrote:

2. clearly there are many whose sole source of information on the issue is cheap yellow press, which in order to have "attractive" headlines reduces everything to black and white. it's just sickening to see that those crap media have a manipulation effect on people that goes that far that people wish death on someone they actually have not the slightest clue about.

..sounds weird man

...not happy about somebodys death at all...just as mentioned in the first place: no major loss..haider put himself in a position where you cannot demand blandness

...why should this topic only be for honorable people (whoever those are)...anyway controversy and dialectics`good

Totally agree!

ITALOMASTER  /  www.discotrax.de

Pack my case
Leave behind this human race

Re: R.i.p.

perfect, almost poetic way for mr. haider to die.

Monkey see, monkey do.

Re: R.i.p.

@rude
i know what u mean and i agree. nevertheless i liked to bring my antirespect to mr.haider here.
i also agree to not start that debatte, as my english is not good enough for serious debattes wink

Every Friday Night We Dress In Black

Re: R.i.p.

kirmes wrote:
darder wrote:

2. clearly there are many whose sole source of information on the issue is cheap yellow press, which in order to have "attractive" headlines reduces everything to black and white. it's just sickening to see that those crap media have a manipulation effect on people that goes that far that people wish death on someone they actually have not the slightest clue about.

..sounds weird man

...not happy about somebodys death at all...just as mentioned in the first place: no major loss..haider put himself in a position where you cannot demand blandness

...why should this topic only be for honorable people (whoever those are)...anyway controversy and dialectics`good

well, then i'll try to explain...

first thing: for each topic there is a certain level of detail below which there is no point in discussing it.

second: as you can probably tell i'm austrian - and i can assure you that i never voted for any right-wing party, i would never even have thought of doing so. over the past few years i've been frequently working abroad, so i have quite some experience on how the phenomenon haider was covered and perceived abroad. and it was mostly covered in the most simplistic superficial way possible that would tell you nothing about the reality. so what i'm convinced of is that you either have personal experiences with austria, or you were lucky enough to get your information from those 2% of media that covered the topic in sufficient detail, or otherwise you know simply nothing about the whole topic. and reading what i can read here implies the latter.

and as a third thing: it's a very good thing to have high standards in morale and ethics. but only if you do not exclude anyone, especially yourself. unfortunately what i experience is lots of people with double moral standards. anything you are doing (such as rejoicing over someone's death) is justified, cause you are on the "right side". however, finding the opponent doing the same thing would just prove how evil he is. it's empty poses, it does not take anyone anywhere.

i sincerely appreciate any activities directed towards a liberal, tolerant, open-minded society, and try to live up to that myself. but this requires a certain level of reflection, and not empty "there are the evil, i am the good" black-and-white poses. there is too much of that.

maybe this all does not apply to you, kirmes, then sorry for that, it's just that i experienced what i described far too often.

Re: R.i.p.

give us the 'real' scoop then. claims of ss symphatizing weren't factual?

Monkey see, monkey do.

Re: R.i.p.

@elec: okay, next time we'll see each other we'll discuss it in german.. and we'll invite Gitano too.. big_smile

@darder: well said. same kind of thing happens here..

@biotek: its all about context. i'm a volkswagen driver, and i love the vw beetle. someone can take that statement and claim i'm glorifying the nazi regime, because they were heavy promotors of that car. same if i would claim i love germany's autobahn system or some of Albert Speer's buildings..

@Aratkilo: that sucks.. i saw Hector Zazou play live many years ago. RIP..

Re: R.i.p.

@biotek: its all about context. i'm a volkswagen driver, and i love the vw beetle. someone can take that statement and claim i'm glorifying the nazi regime, because they were heavy promotors of that car. same if i would claim i love germany's autobahn system or some of Albert Speer's buildings..

Yeah but Haider is a bit different then nerds liking nazi design, its pretty obvious for somebody running an anti immigration party

Re: R.i.p.

yes

Monkey see, monkey do.

Re: R.i.p.

biotek wrote:

give us the 'real' scoop then. claims of ss symphatizing weren't factual?

my intention is not to defend haider for anything (if you take a look at my first posting in this thread you will see that the name haider does not occur, because i was talking about general principles), and neither do i feel like elaborating on the austrian right wing movement; this would be the wrong place anyway. for anyone interested i'm more than sure that there are plenty of sources available.

so this will be my last post on the topic.

haider was a populist (he defined himself as one), quite chameleon-like adapting to his surrounding, trying to benefit from whatever emotions there were. as he saw his role in fighting the establishment this included many harsh provocations, including ones (not regular ones, but on a few occasions) that were ambiguous with respect to national socialism. an absolute no-go, rightly so, and the huge protests this caused were more than justified.

as highly problematic and unacceptable this undoubtedly is, as wrong are (as far as can be told) the conclusions of sympathy for national socialism. just a small fact here: the first time restitution was a real agenda for an austrian government was when haiders party was first participating within a coalition.

so this is where two completely different views on the same subjects originated: for the one side there were those unacceptable statements. unacceptable, topic closed, no need to dig any further. for the other side these were just a handful of not well-thought-of statements in a political career of more than 2 decades, nothing to draw the attention off the real actions and ambitions. this was really an immense dividing gap.

it is perfectly true that all those simplifications, the nazi equations, were haiders own fault, due to some unacceptable statements, no need to have any pity for that. still they were incorrect. nothing is _that_ simple...

but all this is not what my original postings were about - see above...


good night.

Re: R.i.p.

darder wrote:
kirmes wrote:
darder wrote:

2. clearly there are many whose sole source of information on the issue is cheap yellow press, which in order to have "attractive" headlines reduces everything to black and white. it's just sickening to see that those crap media have a manipulation effect on people that goes that far that people wish death on someone they actually have not the slightest clue about.

..sounds weird man

...not happy about somebodys death at all...just as mentioned in the first place: no major loss..haider put himself in a position where you cannot demand blandness

...why should this topic only be for honorable people (whoever those are)...anyway controversy and dialectics`good

well, then i'll try to explain...

first thing: for each topic there is a certain level of detail below which there is no point in discussing it.

second: as you can probably tell i'm austrian - and i can assure you that i never voted for any right-wing party, i would never even have thought of doing so. over the past few years i've been frequently working abroad, so i have quite some experience on how the phenomenon haider was covered and perceived abroad. and it was mostly covered in the most simplistic superficial way possible that would tell you nothing about the reality. so what i'm convinced of is that you either have personal experiences with austria, or you were lucky enough to get your information from those 2% of media that covered the topic in sufficient detail, or otherwise you know simply nothing about the whole topic. and reading what i can read here implies the latter.

and as a third thing: it's a very good thing to have high standards in morale and ethics. but only if you do not exclude anyone, especially yourself. unfortunately what i experience is lots of people with double moral standards. anything you are doing (such as rejoicing over someone's death) is justified, cause you are on the "right side". however, finding the opponent doing the same thing would just prove how evil he is. it's empty poses, it does not take anyone anywhere.

i sincerely appreciate any activities directed towards a liberal, tolerant, open-minded society, and try to live up to that myself. but this requires a certain level of reflection, and not empty "there are the evil, i am the good" black-and-white poses. there is too much of that.

maybe this all does not apply to you, kirmes, then sorry for that, it's just that i experienced what i described far too often.

...nice to see that you know your meta-level...but what you mention here sounds very liberal...way too liberal to be true..dangerous liberal for my share

...if it comes to media you`d rather critize austrian way of dealing with his own history...and that creates lately results of elections..and those are a shame

...so if you`re as liberal as you`re expressing yourself here you should rather be `not that shocked` about old-nazi-parents grinning son j

Re: R.i.p.

Squadra Smackos wrote:

@biotek: its all about context. i'm a volkswagen driver, and i love the vw beetle. someone can take that statement and claim i'm glorifying the nazi regime, because they were heavy promotors of that car. same if i would claim i love germany's autobahn system or some of Albert Speer's buildings..

Yeah but Haider is a bit different then nerds liking nazi design, its pretty obvious for somebody running an anti immigration party

bingo!

Re: R.i.p.

yeah there seemed to be a lot more than some sort of 'nazi populism' (?) going on with this guy. seems like almost too fitting way to go for a european ubernarcissistic righwinger, speeding and loosing control in your own volkswagen. probably didn't even wear a seatbelt.

Last edited by biotek (2008-10-12 23:17:13)

Monkey see, monkey do.

Re: R.i.p.

Squadra Smackos wrote:

Yeah but Haider is a bit different then nerds liking nazi design, its pretty obvious for somebody running an anti immigration party

well, for me running an anti immigration party has nothing in itself to do with nazism. very right wing, sure. populist? you bet. for me Haider is not a nazi, just like geert wilders or dewinter in belgium are not nazis either.
it's what is starting to piss me off more and more about politically correct media and people: as soon as someone is a little right wing and populist, he is immediately thrown in a corner with hitler. but mention anything about their parties' ultra left wing views and link it to all the crimes done by, for instance, stalin and mao, and suddenly it's not the same thing..

@biotek: there is some poetry in it, for sure. hm, i also never wear seatbelts.. big_smile

Re: R.i.p.

populist? you bet. for me Haider is not a nazi, just like geert wilders or dewinter in belgium are not nazis either.

Nobody or at least me sais he is a not a nazi but having an anti immigration party and meeting up at old SS meetings is clear enough for me what kind of person it is.

If such a guy would be running things you would be the first one to go rude (because of how your hair looks, or maybe you were connected to the Squat scene or you make weird music etc.)

So yeah I couldn't give a rats ass about his dead...

Left wing commies has nothing to do with this, for me that worstenstopper at the SP is the same as the Winter etc.
I only like Manuel Noriega, that was a good man.

Re: R.i.p.

Squadra Smackos wrote:

populist? you bet. for me Haider is not a nazi, just like geert wilders or dewinter in belgium are not nazis either.

Nobody or at least me sais he is a not a nazi but having an anti immigration party and meeting up at old SS meetings is clear enough for me what kind of person it is.

If such a guy would be running things you would be the first one to go rude (because of how your hair looks, or maybe you were connected to the Squat scene or you make weird music etc.)

So yeah I couldn't give a rats ass about his dead...

Left wing commies has nothing to do with this, for me that worstenstopper at the SP is the same as the Winter etc.
I only like Manuel Noriega, that was a good man.

just as a small note: he _was_ running things, being provincial governour in carinthia for many many years now (and those 9 provincial governours have lots of power in their hands here). lots of things to heavily critize as you can guess, but rather unrelated to those wild persecution visions. as said: it's good and necessary to criticise haider, but like with any other subject, why not get your facts right before doing so, instead of swimming on an uninformed wave of cliches, paranoia, and projections.

Re: R.i.p.

right, the left wing mainstream media. you mean like fox news? whatever. i really wonder why, in this day and age, the media is still seen as being on the political left or having leftish tendencies when in reality we're probably closer to a balance of media outlets influenced by either (left or right) side.

Re: R.i.p.

and as to haider's version of "running things": pushing through popular measures (remember, we agree that he was a populist) is certainly a way of running things. if this really gets the problems at hand solved is an entirely different story.

but then again, i might be grossly generalizing.


and no, i don't think he was a (neo-)nazi either. maybe just too provocative and unreflected for his own good. but even that is debatable in as far as some of his more controversial statements and connections certainly earned him support of some voters...

Last edited by JamesTRubotnik (2008-10-13 10:47:22)

Re: R.i.p.

JamesTRubotnik wrote:

right, the left wing mainstream media. you mean like fox news? whatever. i really wonder why, in this day and age, the media is still seen as being on the political left or having leftish tendencies when in reality we're probably closer to a balance of media outlets influenced by either (left or right) side.

this really depends on the country. in the US there really is no ''left wing'' media, though the general media there seem a bit more leaning towards the democratic side these days.. esp[ecially the bigger national papers like the NY times.

i know here in holland there tends to be a bias towards the left with the bigger papers, but that also has to do with their background..

@smackos: i'm not saying it would be paradise if those kind of guys would be running things, but it certainly wouldn't be the 4th reich either..

Re: R.i.p.

rude66 wrote:
JamesTRubotnik wrote:

right, the left wing mainstream media. you mean like fox news? whatever. i really wonder why, in this day and age, the media is still seen as being on the political left or having leftish tendencies when in reality we're probably closer to a balance of media outlets influenced by either (left or right) side.

this really depends on the country. in the US there really is no ''left wing'' media, though the general media there seem a bit more leaning towards the democratic side these days.. esp[ecially the bigger national papers like the NY times.

i know here in holland there tends to be a bias towards the left with the bigger papers, but that also has to do with their background..

@smackos: i'm not saying it would be paradise if those kind of guys would be running things, but it certainly wouldn't be the 4th reich either..

EU is the 4th reich, VS is the new 3rd world ..

smile

TB or not TB

Re: R.i.p.

i see a solution here. we should give all the left/right extremists extremely fast sportscars and let nature take it's course.

Monkey see, monkey do.

Re: R.i.p.

Back to more relevant people within the musical context...

The Godfather Of Rocksteady, Alton Ellis (1938-2008)
http://www.jahwarrior.com/profiles_files/AltonEllis.jpg

Re: R.i.p.

In his Paradise's Home, he will live in the same room as J.HAIDER, because they die at the same Time.

Last edited by lucio robo (2008-10-13 15:15:10)

No somo Roberto Succo

Re: R.i.p.

Woody Aki wrote:

Back to more relevant people within the musical context...

The Godfather Of Rocksteady, Alton Ellis (1938-2008)
http://www.jahwarrior.com/profiles_files/AltonEllis.jpg

RIP.

"do it just like uncle freddy"

Re: R.i.p.

aratkiLo wrote:

RIP a great french artist too .. Hector Zazou..
Lots of collaboration with various underground projects.
60 yo .. too early again sad

Good time to play Zazou/Bikaye again/ Cy1

Strictly Rockaas