Re: [Berlin] 28.11.09 - Arena - Dopplereffekt, Luisine...

i don't post much because people talk so much shit, but this got me pissed enough to give my 2 cents.

let me be very clear: i'm not a big dopplereffekt fan and i didn't have high expectations about what this kind of show would be like in a club venue.


1. my good friend is the sound guy who did dopplereffekt's soundcheck at arena - he plugged their gear directly into DI-boxes then into the mixer.

there were no laptops or other boxes. and as far as i know, nor have they used anything like that. can somebody prove otherwise? pics?

2. they use a heavy amount of pre-sequenced material, but there is also a certain amount of live performance happening... some keyboard accompaniment and sound shaping. the sound guy can vouch for this.  (fyi - they bring one korg triton and the other is rented. the triton probably has the MOSS expansion board so they can get the virtual analog modeling)

they bring 2 dvd's of original video material with them as well.

3. this probably falls under the category of performance art. maybe that's why i was a bit skeptical. but after hearing their sonic soundscapes in this kind of venue, i was pleasantly surprised. i loved hearing it loud!!

i think it's disrespectful to trash performers with a long and interesting career who bring challenging and somewhat unorthodox material into a club setting.

4. speaking as a live performer for over 12 years, do you know how much preparation it takes to make all that video material? to make all that music over the years? to have that kind of composure and motivation to do something different?

i'd like to see y'all try to pull off anything close to this.

it's like those people you overhear in museums looking at some monotone painting that cost a million dollars: "oh i could have done that!"

well guess what? you didn't - and such things bubble up and appear as a result of a long context of artistic production. some of it has to do with knowing the right people or being in the right place at the right time.

but trashing gerald donald seems absolutely retarded. the sound was good, the video was kitschy and cute (yeah, i'm a sucker for silly science-fetishes) and their austere stage presence matches their sound perfectly.

and finally - this speaks for itself:

Aliases: Arpanet, Glass Domain, Heinrich Mueller, Intellitronic, Japanese Telecom
In Groups: Abstract Thought, Der Zyklus, Dopplereffekt, Drexciya, Elecktroids, Flexitone, L.A.M., Zerkalo

http://sneak-thief.com - raw electrofunk

Re: [Berlin] 28.11.09 - Arena - Dopplereffekt, Luisine...

http://sneak-thief.com/de.jpg

http://sneak-thief.com - raw electrofunk

Re: [Berlin] 28.11.09 - Arena - Dopplereffekt, Luisine...

word. Still want to get one of those Tritons in the future. So they're both Tritons? Because I heard the woman plays another synth or something

Re: [Berlin] 28.11.09 - Arena - Dopplereffekt, Luisine...

the sound guy said that the rented keyboard was midi'd to the triton and just told me: "that did not even need to be a korg - the rider simply asked for a 61 key keyboard"

so she was triggering sounds from the triton. they likely use a mixture of the internal triton sounds along with samples of their other gear and the MOSS sounds.

http://sneak-thief.com - raw electrofunk

Re: [Berlin] 28.11.09 - Arena - Dopplereffekt, Luisine...

woooord, 3000 eur wow smile

Re: [Berlin] 28.11.09 - Arena - Dopplereffekt, Luisine...

shit hipster nobody DJ's that never touched a synthesizer get more then that

Re: [Berlin] 28.11.09 - Arena - Dopplereffekt, Luisine...

yep

33

Re: [Berlin] 28.11.09 - Arena - Dopplereffekt, Luisine...

Madame Strobonoid wrote:

Strictly No Live-Set. Fake Boxes with no Synth. Played the stuff from Computer. Very boring Audience ..... "Played" ca. 60 Minutes .... cashed 3000 Euro and left .... Man, what they call LIVE these days is a shame ....

that so "unelegant" to reveal how win someone for a performance, specially on a forum where the people concerned might see it

Re: [Berlin] 28.11.09 - Arena - Dopplereffekt, Luisine...

Robots, I love the Dopplereffekt releases a lot. For sure they are friendly and kind people and they have to make money like everyone of us. To post the Cash was unelegant, yes. I will make an Edit ;-) of this after this Post. So, Sorry.

What I dont like are people which are following their Idols in every Single point and in everything they are doing or not doing. I didnt trashed Gerald Donald. I said the Truth and I didnt lick someones Ass, because he had so many brilliant releases. If you are so blind and deaf. No problem. Live your Dreams and obey everything you hear and see without any questions. If you say this was a mighty Live-Performance, please go ahead - but this proves me that someone who would say this here didnt know so much. And please dont tell me something about installing Visuals or to make a Party great. Everyone who is deep into Art and Music should (!) know this. But this wasnt the Point here by the way and there is no need to discuss it here. If you want to inform people how to make a Party great - just open a new Thread. I think it would be more than welcome and helpful in order to avoid disappointments.

Always the same shit ....  You write something critical about unknown people - most people are slaying them down. If you post some critcical stuff about Legends or famous people most people cry and say: "How could you .... "  What a lame, stupid and primitive behavior ....

Thanx to DEZ, I dont like shady air-synth-actions either .....

Re: [Berlin] 28.11.09 - Arena - Dopplereffekt, Luisine...

Madame Strobonoid wrote:

If you say this was a mighty Live-Performance, please go ahead - but this proves me that someone who would say this here didnt know so much. And please dont tell me something about installing Visuals or to make a Party great. Everyone who is deep into Art and Music should (!) know this.

LOL

i'm going to call you on your weak arguments, misinformation and cheap insults - and take the high ground without resorting to an ad hominem attack.


1. thanks for the "everybody knows" fallacy:

"The everybody knows fallacy is used to make an assumption that a premise is taken as a given, and that there are no justified and acceptable exceptions"

i provided a clear and personal explanation of why i found the performance to be valid - but you seem to be more concerned with provoking some kind of emotional response based on the premise that you're "deep into Art and music" but provide no background for these statements.

let me restate it: i'm fond of experimental soundscapes and austere electro sounds coupled with science-fetish visuals. the stoic, masked performance-art aspect was refreshing to see in contrast with over-the-top club theatrics.

it felt refreshing.

i'm not even a big dopplereffekt fan and didn't have high expectations.


2.

Madame Strobonoid wrote:

What a lame, stupid and primitive behavior

these are harsh words from someone who can't even get the facts straight.

i'm offering a factual and logical refutation of your claims in addition to a personal evaluation based on my professional experience. whether you'd like to admit it or not, all art has a context and it certainly influences how something is interpreted and experienced. think about auteur theory, art history, etc.

you don't even have the guts to admit you were flat-out wrong about them using computers for playback. i carefully explained the mechanics of their performance from the perspective of someone who does it for a living.

http://sneak-thief.com - raw electrofunk

Re: [Berlin] 28.11.09 - Arena - Dopplereffekt, Luisine...

madame strobonoid:

since you claim to be deep in art and music, i'd like to invite you to a discussion about what counts as "authenticity" in art.

let me start:

in this day and age, is a photographer who develops their own film and does their own enlarging more "authentic" then one who uses a digital camera and a printer?

or in this case, is an artist who presents their material in a pre-sequenced fashion with the occasional accompaniment less "authentic" than one who plays a completely improvised set?


don't forget the context: clubs where it's mostly dj's playing back other peoples' music.

and i'm curious too because i don't have an answer: where does the dopplereffekt focus on science and automation figure into this? isn't it their stated intention the "sound of science"? does that mean that more automation is acceptable when being billed as a "live" act?


...and for god's sake, please refrain from this kind of language involving "lick[ing] someones Ass" and being "so blind and deaf". i'd love to engage in a rational, level-headed conversation.

http://sneak-thief.com - raw electrofunk

Re: [Berlin] 28.11.09 - Arena - Dopplereffekt, Luisine...

sneakthief wrote:
Madame Strobonoid wrote:

If you say this was a mighty Live-Performance, please go ahead - but this proves me that someone who would say this here didnt know so much. And please dont tell me something about installing Visuals or to make a Party great. Everyone who is deep into Art and Music should (!) know this.

LOL

i'm going to call you on your weak arguments, misinformation and cheap insults - and take the high ground without resorting to an ad hominem attack.


1. thanks for the "everybody knows" fallacy:


I wrote: SHOULD (!) 



"The everybody knows fallacy is used to make an assumption that a premise is taken as a given, and that there are no justified and acceptable exceptions"

i provided a clear and personal explanation of why i found the performance to be valid - but you seem to be more concerned with provoking some kind of emotional response based on the premise that you're "deep into Art and music" but provide no background for these statements.



I have a large background about this since I started to travel through Europe and Oversea in order to join Electronic Venues and Art-Exhibitions in 1983.  And yes it was a bit emotional because I was disappointed - Not about the Music ITSELF and for sure not about the Visuals. And i cant remember writing this.  So why you jump to things I never said. Just in your head. Or you just want to show me / us how professional you are and how much work a good Venue takes? Man this I know for sure. Perhaps not everything but enough. I organized small electronic Parties from 1989 - 1991. And we always had a great Soundsystem and Visuals, but this is not the point here.


let me restate it: i'm fond of experimental soundscapes and austere electro sounds coupled with science-fetish visuals. the stoic, masked performance-art aspect was refreshing to see in contrast with over-the-top club theatrics.

it felt refreshing.


The same here.  Never complained about these listed attributes. When I go to a Show or a Electronic Event I personally EXPECT this.


i'm not even a big dopplereffekt fan and didn't have high expectations.


No Problem, but there are some people around which expect a little bit more then MOST of this typical Berlin-Hype-Kindergarten-Events without any substance in order to appear cool and get wellknown or something like this. Please dont feel addressed Sneakthief.

2.

Madame Strobonoid wrote:

What a lame, stupid and primitive behavior

these are harsh words from someone who can't even get the facts straight.

i'm offering a factual and logical refutation of your claims in addition to a personal evaluation based on my professional experience. whether you'd like to admit it or not, all art has a context and it certainly influences how something is interpreted and experienced. think about auteur theory, art history, etc.

you don't even have the guts to admit you were flat-out wrong about them using computers for playback. i carefully explained the mechanics of their performance from the perspective of someone who does it for a living.

In this case I am just disappointed what people call LIVE. Nothing more - nothing less.

Re: [Berlin] 28.11.09 - Arena - Dopplereffekt, Luisine...

Sorry for the bad Quote Sneakthief, but I think you can handle it.

Re: [Berlin] 28.11.09 - Arena - Dopplereffekt, Luisine...

sneakthief wrote:

or in this case, is an artist who presents their material in a pre-sequenced fashion with the occasional accompaniment less "authentic" than one who plays a completely improvised set?

No, of course not, but that's not the question; the question was on live performance, not on authenticity. I think it's clear that presenting pre-prepared material by yourself or others, either from tape (where the practice started in electronic music) vinyl, from cd, from sequences and with and without accompaniment are all valid modes of expression that all have their place.

I do think, however, that there are differences. Personally I typically find more improvised music more engaging while recognising that improvising everything on the spot is a very tall order and choices have to be made there. Artists have to make those for themselves; there are advantages and downsides to all of them and nobody else can weigh those. Another challenge is conveying to the audience what is happening and of course deal with expectations that audiences have. Some audiences might demand pristine mastered sound, others could be looking to see the artist write or play music on the spot and yet others may be content with simply seeing their hero in person. All of those might be called "authentic" in their own way.

What struck me about this debate is that it's mostly centred on how "live" this performance was yet there is still no clarity on what actually happened. Even if we could settle on a definition of "live" we would have no way of determining whether or not this performance conformed to it. It seems to me then that the core issue that left Madame dissatisfied might be one of presentation. I wasn't there and I don't know what Madame is looking for in live performance so i can't comment on that. I do think though that the question of conveying to the audience what is going on is a hard one and that the typical club-setting doesn't make this very easy. I don't think we have yet established a tradition for live performance of electronic dance music that is truly separate from DJ performances. I think that the traditions of presenting pre-prepared material without the implication of live improvisation though tape concerts and vinyl releases are still more dominant, even though that's changing rapidly in this age.

Personally I feel this lack of tradition is a boon as it permits for more individual freedom, and a chance to (attempt to) negotiate a new relationship to individual audiences with every set. However, like with any social transitory stage there will also be mismatched expectations, leading to tension. This strikes me as quite understandable and indeed fairly predictable. Perhaps in a certain sense the present debate is exactly this kind of audience-performer negotiation and if so I'm quite sceptical about the chance the two of you have of resolving it through a forum.

That is of course not to imply that attempting to do so may not still be a worthwhile exercise.

Re: [Berlin] 28.11.09 - Arena - Dopplereffekt, Luisine...

thank-you for the clarifications and the background. it helps give a context to your argument.

1. you wrote: "If you say this was a mighty Live-Performance,..."

but that's not what i said at all, i enjoyed the show as "performance-art" and as a continuation of their sonic and visual mandate.

i'm pretty sure that people can receive and judge "performance-art" differently from "live-performance" - what do you think?

for me, compelling "performance-art" requires just as much skill and preparation as a nice "live-performance". in fact, you need a lot more originality and genius to make "performance-art" as interesting because you can't simply rely on live musical skills.


2. when you wrote this comment: "If you are so blind and deaf. No problem." it really seemed like an attack on the sound and visuals... you know, "i must be blind and deaf" to think it was good. or is this a misinterpretation of what you wrote?

3. if you want, we can start a new thread for this - but i'm very curious about my previous questions:

taking into consideration that *some* keyboards were played during the set - how much automation is too much? and how much keyboard accompaniment is enough?

as a point of comparison, do you realize how many live performers look very busy but aren't actually making very big changes to the sound? i call this micro-managing... fucking around with little effects or playing a couple notes in a way that neither adds anything to the live performance nor would be noticeable if not done at all.

there's a whole spectrum of live performance methods: on one side, you have performers like Erobique who are playing the melodies live on a rhodes, the bassline live on a synth, triggering drums from an mpc AND singing!

then you have show like Kraftwerk where it's like a Don Bluth videogame, eg. Space Ace or Dragon's Lair - remember those? you simply had to push the right button at the right moment, like Guitar Hero or something like that.

now i've never had the desire to see Kraftwerk in the last decade, but I'll concede that their stage show looks pretty impressive and probably puts them in the "performance-art" category. besides, they always talked about having robots replace them and weren't ashamed of automation.

so did Dopplereffekt just "cash the money and leave"? i guess it depends on what you were expecting.

you said: "Strictly No Live-Set. Fake Boxes with no Synth. Played the stuff from Computer."

all of those things were false. they used a Korg Triton synth and played some melodies over top pre-sequenced songs.

is it live? i would say so.

is it live enough? not sure... i guess that's a personal opinion.

http://sneak-thief.com - raw electrofunk

41 (edited by Kenzaburo 2009-12-02 11:33:48)

Re: [Berlin] 28.11.09 - Arena - Dopplereffekt, Luisine...

Excellent post Zachary. What occured to me is that nowadays increasing number of dj's are using just a laptop + midi controller and maybe someting like NI Maschine in addition. That way dj's can do much more than if they were just playing records, live looping, mangling, playing 5 tracks at the same time and all that. So in a sense it becomes more of a live performance where you make something 'new' out of the material you have. I've seen parties where all the dj's (playing other people's tracks) and live performers (playing there own tracks) both played from laptops. The line is blurry indeed ..

Re: [Berlin] 28.11.09 - Arena - Dopplereffekt, Luisine...

I was not there but it's about the quality of a performance after all right? And that is something that is not measured easily. What is considered quality? And how to measure that? Good equipement? Good venue? Overall sound? Real live jams on synths etc?

For example: If at a superb venue with good sound+light a dj plays 6 hours straight with 3 decks and reel to reel and effects and whatnot and scratches, cut's, beatjuggles and do all sort of fancy stuff wit the music he plays but just plays random chart music.

vs.

A Dj that only plays 2 hours in a old venue with bad sound and bad lights, no fancy dj-skills and sloppy mixin' but with (considered) quality music, genre doesnt matter but it all fits together.

What is considered to be a better performance?

Does a performance(r) need to please the crowd?
How much does the technical level of a performance outweighs the concept of it?
What are your expectations as viewer? Does it matter Doppler got 3000.- for a gig that you didnt like? Let's assume that for this example that Aphex Twin get's 30.000 for a live gig, same duration. Is his performance 10 x better? Does he does 10x more live jams on a midicontroller? Is the venue he's at 10x better in any way, does he not play air synth sounds? You cant measure stuff like that decent. Price doesnt say anything imo. There's lotsa things you could count as factor on how to judge a (live) performance but none of them are suited for measuring objective as the experience of the viewer is 100% subjective.

Re: [Berlin] 28.11.09 - Arena - Dopplereffekt, Luisine...

NB: one person's "shady air-synth" is another person's "autistic performer hand movements". sometimes i move to the sounds i'm making when performing... i can't help it and there's no deception intended.

in some cases, it's hard to judge what's showmanship and what's natural physical expression.

http://sneak-thief.com - raw electrofunk

Re: [Berlin] 28.11.09 - Arena - Dopplereffekt, Luisine...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9gp9oyn0NE&NR=1

Re: [Berlin] 28.11.09 - Arena - Dopplereffekt, Luisine...

S.T.E.N.T.E.C. wrote:

Does it matter Doppler got 3000.- for a gig that you didnt like? Let's assume that for this example that Aphex Twin get's 30.000 for a live gig, same duration. Is his performance 10 x better? Does he does 10x more live jams on a midicontroller? Is the venue he's at 10x better in any way, does he not play air synth sounds? You cant measure stuff like that decent. Price doesnt say anything imo. There's lotsa things you could count as factor on how to judge a (live) performance but none of them are suited for measuring objective as the experience of the viewer is 100% subjective.

I would leave out the money factor out of it completely, because price of the booking is almost never associated with the artist's performance skills, especially with musicians who perform electronic music, but more with the reputation and demographic fan-base that are capable of generating strong enough critical mass of people to make it profitable for the event organizer's money investment in the booking.

Re: [Berlin] 28.11.09 - Arena - Dopplereffekt, Luisine...

mekonin wrote:
S.T.E.N.T.E.C. wrote:

Does it matter Doppler got 3000.- for a gig that you didnt like? Let's assume that for this example that Aphex Twin get's 30.000 for a live gig, same duration. Is his performance 10 x better? Does he does 10x more live jams on a midicontroller? Is the venue he's at 10x better in any way, does he not play air synth sounds? You cant measure stuff like that decent. Price doesnt say anything imo. There's lotsa things you could count as factor on how to judge a (live) performance but none of them are suited for measuring objective as the experience of the viewer is 100% subjective.

I would leave out the money factor out of it completely, because price of the booking is almost never associated with the artist's performance skills, especially with musicians who perform electronic music, but more with the reputation and demographic fan-base that are capable of generating strong enough critical mass of people to make it profitable for the event organizer's money investment in the booking.

I would leave it out myself but somewhere in the beginning of the discussion someone mentioned it as being part of artist behaviour to do 'fake' liveset take the money and run. Ofcourse money says nothing. Take Tiesto as example.

47 (edited by jayoverdose 2009-12-02 15:54:57)

Re: [Berlin] 28.11.09 - Arena - Dopplereffekt, Luisine...

i love it that they freak you the fuck out and dont give a hoot about keeping the dancefloor going, keeping the dancefloor going is soooooooooo 199something.

Showing the way for the modern man to become a Model Man.

Re: [Berlin] 28.11.09 - Arena - Dopplereffekt, Luisine...

m009 now available for sale

Re: [Berlin] 28.11.09 - Arena - Dopplereffekt, Luisine...

and continues to suck

Showing the way for the modern man to become a Model Man.

Re: [Berlin] 28.11.09 - Arena - Dopplereffekt, Luisine...

somebody give me fucking 3000 smackers for a g*damn f*cking triton