Re: Kraakverbod (mostly Dutch)

? so, how did this protest demonstration today go through

52 (edited by silver 2009-10-24 14:07:49)

Re: Kraakverbod (mostly Dutch)

So you are one of those people that think squatters have got no jobs at all. Sad.

Well, obviously not all of them. I realize that there is more to squatting than the ever so visible hordes of idiots organizing protests and violently refusing extraction.

Generalisations do not apply other than me feeling that what "they" do is wrong.

Maargoed, zulke discussies horen eigenlijk op het zwaar-gemodereerde en immer in slecht Nederlands opgestelde Indymedia thuis smile Forums like these bleven tot op heden voor mij altijd verschoond van politiek en dat was wel zo prettig. Dus hier laat ik het bij.

hoi!

Re: Kraakverbod (mostly Dutch)

There is only a small amount of squatters that ruins the way people look at squatters. The good suffer, the bad will find a way to do what they want to do anywayz.

54 (edited by NoiZe 2009-10-24 14:08:34)

Re: Kraakverbod (mostly Dutch)

About generalisations.. check pics:
http://www.nu.nl/algemeen/2108540/lande … start.html

Going to Utrecht soon

Re: Kraakverbod (mostly Dutch)

silver wrote:

I'm not really a conventional office worker but more importantly, I didn't harm local business, endanger law enforcement officers nor splattered paint around the whole place. That's the only conclusion there is to be drawn out what I've posted. And a fair bit of justified hatred just because of that.

Well, I have a justified hatred of office workers, which I hold to be all the same. Did you know that much of the development of the atom bomb was done in offices? That's why I hate office workers. Ever met a office worker who claimed to be a "conventional office worker"? Not me, I bet that the people who developed the atom bomb were convinced they had a "unique identity" as well, probably from their perspective they were even doing the world a favour. All the same and I hate them.

Oh, and people who post on the internet, I hate those as well, you wouldn't believe the stuff I read a few months ago on there. I also hate people who drive red cars since I was cut off by one when I was 12. Did I mention New Yorkers? I hate those too; the food at the hotel was terrible. Perhaps most of all I hate women, this started back when I was 4 and my mum wouldn't let me have candy, I'll never forget, it was in the late afternoon. It was confirmed time and time again, just yesterday one was blocking the entrance to the tram.

Still, office workers are pritty bad and most of them harm local businesses, they even have a word for that, calling it "competition". Terrible people.

:-p

Try getting to know some people; it really is a lot more fun than hating.

Re: Kraakverbod (mostly Dutch)

NoiZe wrote:

There is only a small amount of squatters that ruins the way people look at squatters. The good suffer, the bad will find a way to do what they want to do anywayz.

Yup, I see how that is a problem. What I wonder about though is why communities that suffer from this problem often show little or no initiative to positively regulate themselves..

hoi!

Re: Kraakverbod (mostly Dutch)

Zachary Bosch wrote:

Well, I have a justified hatred of office workers, which I hold to be all the same. Did you know that much of the development of the atom bomb was done in offices? That's why I hate office workers. Ever met a office worker who claimed to be a "conventional office worker"? Not me, I bet that the people who developed the atom bomb were convinced they had a "unique identity" as well, probably from their perspective they were even doing the world a favour. All the same and I hate them.

Oh, and people who post on the internet, I hate those as well, you wouldn't believe the stuff I read a few months ago on there. I also hate people who drive red cars since I was cut off by one when I was 12. Did I mention New Yorkers? I hate those too; the food at the hotel was terrible. Perhaps most of all I hate women, this started back when I was 4 and my mum wouldn't let me have candy, I'll never forget, it was in the late afternoon. It was confirmed time and time again, just yesterday one was blocking the entrance to the tram.

Still, office workers are pritty bad and most of them harm local businesses, they even have a word for that, calling it "competition". Terrible people.

The most important difference between this rant and mine is that I based mine on reality. This serves no other purpose than to draw a caricature. Well done.

Try getting to know some people; it really is a lot more fun than hating.

Totally agree. But first they'll have to stop breaking the law.

About generalisations.. check pics:
http://www.nu.nl/algemeen/2108540/landelijk-krakers

hoi!

58 (edited by NoiZe 2009-10-24 14:45:36)

Re: Kraakverbod (mostly Dutch)

Because you don't see this happening it doesn't exist?

There are a lot of thinks going on for ages. For ex. TNoH in Zeist, they tried to make it legal thru bying it. Not possible.
They are hosting theatrical shows there together the local theater. Theater get subsidised, they have to do it with unpaid labor.
Other big squated places (> 5 years) with cultural activities tried to do the same, but it keeps failing. Why? Because of MONEY. Squatters have ideas and spent their little money on making these things happen. Cities and big building owners don't give a fuck about culture, all they want it PROFITABLE action.

Legal cultural organisations are getting less money every year and strongly rely on squats to cut costs. This meens a lot of those organisations will have to stop.

Is that what is the purpose of this law? Kill cultural stuff? To get everybody to work hard for a boss to pay for their too expensive house?

Re: Kraakverbod (mostly Dutch)

Sadly, it has been going that way for years now. We are slowly going to a more and more repressive society. See Stubnitz, pubs not allowed open after 3 in Adam, forbidding old cars in the centre etc. etc. etc..

Upside is sooner or later we will all be good christians. Blueeeerk.

Re: Kraakverbod (mostly Dutch)

silver wrote:

The most important difference between this rant and mine is that I based mine on reality. This serves no other purpose than to draw a caricature. Well done.

Well, I thought that by applying your reasoning to office workers, people who drive red cars, etc, you'd see how silly I find it.

Totally agree. But first they'll have to stop breaking the law.

Not all squatters are breaking the law, or being violent. You can't apply what you saw some individuals do to the whole group; substitute "Turks" (or Jews or homosexuals....) for "squatters" in your post and you'll see. Violence, throwing paint at the police, etc, are already illegal, btw.

About generalisations.. check pics:

Hey, the circus is in town big_smile

Just imagine that! Not everybody abides by the dress-code! And photographers are attracted to striking sights! Shock horror! Some people don't look like any of your friends! We might need a law against that too; a maximum hair length for boys, a minimum for girls. And no painting it in un-natural colours. Maybe a school uniform as well while we're at it.

I wish everybody would act and look just like I do; all of these alternatives give me the feeling that there are choices and this makes me very insecure.

61 (edited by silver 2009-10-25 10:23:47)

Re: Kraakverbod (mostly Dutch)

Oh wow, you even took the liberty to craft a "serious" response to what was meant as a joke. Yeah I'm all for strict laws when it comes to hair length and picket fences. For example:

http://www.businesspundit.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/zzunitas.jpg
(^ now this is a haircut you can set your watch to)

*sigh* It's very predictable how you try to push me in a corner by drawing ridiculous parallels (isn't it time to throw Hitler into the equation yet?); perhaps you're not much different after all.

Now for Noize.

Because you don't see this happening it doesn't exist?

I'd better start wearing my tin foil hat to New York hotel restaurants then. Don't buy into a caricature man.

There are a lot of thinks going on for ages. For ex. TNoH in Zeist, they tried to make it legal thru bying it. Not possible.
They are hosting theatrical shows there together the local theater. Theater get subsidised, they have to do it with unpaid labor.
Other big squated places (> 5 years) with cultural activities tried to do the same, but it keeps failing. Why? Because of MONEY. Squatters have ideas and spent their little money on making these things happen. Cities and big building owners don't give a fuck about culture, all they want it PROFITABLE action.

Legal cultural organisations are getting less money every year and strongly rely on squats to cut costs. This meens a lot of those organisations will have to stop.

Is that what is the purpose of this law? Kill cultural stuff? To get everybody to work hard for a boss to pay for their too expensive house?

Good point; these things being lost is without doubt a downside to squatting being abolished. We yet have to see what the real impact is though as I don't fully believe that the sort of cultural activity you describe will cease to exist without squatting. Lets not forget that in reality this is just a law that eliminates one not exactly hassle-free way of acquiring housing. Big cities are a bitch when it comes to local law and politics, but here in my town I actually know of quite some initiative local government has shown towards non-profit cultural activity, including permanent housing. More of that is needed.

(thanks for putting up actual arguments btw..)

hoi!

Re: Kraakverbod (mostly Dutch)

kuczera wrote:

ben tegen het kraakverbod, maar moet de regering toch een beetje gelijk geven
het is niet meer van deze tijd.. en het "romantisch" kraken tegen de leegstand
tja.... wordt tegenwoordig alleen maar gebruikt als vrijbrief om mooie panden
gratis te bewonen.. en om de boel eens flink te vernielen..

begrijp me niet verkeerd, heb zelf gekraakt en nog jaren in de scene rondgelopen.
wat ik zie bij de nieuwste generatie krakers, is dat ze alleen gratis willen wonen en geen idealen meer hebben
kom op zeg.. get a life!!

silver wrote:

...

I really couldn't have less sympathy for these people. Fuck off, get a job, earn money and participate in the real world.

misschien toch 's maar jullie abonnement op de Telegraaf opzeggen, hoezo verknipt beeld..


ze kunnen beter iets aan het malafide Anti-Kraken doen, als er 1 wet illegaal is dan is die het wel... shit verhuren maar wel meteen alle huurrechten skippen...

http://www.nrc.nl/opinie/article2352626 … nti-kraken

http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/6853/ak1.jpg

http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/6853/ak2o.jpg

Die kut regering gooit eerst alle grenzen open om vervolgens onze eigen verworvenheden af te schieten, welkom in superstaat Europa...

TB or not TB

Re: Kraakverbod (mostly Dutch)

Beetje raar om dan maar aan te nemen dat we de Telegraaf lezen; wouldn't touch that with a 10-foot pole. Wat is de volgende standaard-accusatie in het rijtje, "Geenstijl-lezer" of "Wilders fanaat"?

hoi!

64 (edited by zip 2009-10-25 14:08:06)

Re: Kraakverbod (mostly Dutch)

are there any figures about krakers etc.: how many krakers are there, how many buildings do they squat, how many square m's is that, how many people live on a m2 on average in a squatted building compared to social housing, how many and what kind of cultural things do they organize?

i'm wondering about that because i read a couple of times now stuff like "there is only a small amount of squatters that ruins it for the good squatters" But who knows, isn't it the other way around? And how social are krakers, if they squat a building, do they always get the max out of it regarding cultural events and/or housing?

(off course squatters book better results at that than the property owners, but that doesn't say kraken is the best solution to the problem)

...just wondering, because from my point of view this whole discussion over here is just based on opinions until now...

Re: Kraakverbod (mostly Dutch)

silver wrote:

Beetje raar om dan maar aan te nemen dat we de Telegraaf lezen; wouldn't touch that with a 10-foot pole. Wat is de volgende standaard-accusatie in het rijtje, "Geenstijl-lezer" of "Wilders fanaat"?

...
I really couldn't have less sympathy for these people. Fuck off, get a job, earn money and participate in the real world.

TB or not TB

66

Re: Kraakverbod (mostly Dutch)

zijn hier ook mensen zonder hokjesgeest?

67 (edited by silver 2009-10-25 14:40:22)

Re: Kraakverbod (mostly Dutch)

zip: good point!
Freek: vind je het ongemakkelijk dat kritiek voor de verandering niet van pvv-stemmende campingkrantlezers komt joh?

(zo gaar als ik de Telegraaf vind heb ik trouwens een grotere hekel aan het aanhoudende gezeur erover, het is net zo biased als b.v Indymedia..)

hoi!

Re: Kraakverbod (mostly Dutch)

silver wrote:

zip: good point!
Freek: vind je het ongemakkelijk dat kritiek voor de verandering niet van pvv-stemmende campingkrantlezers komt joh?

(zo gaar als ik de Telegraaf vind heb ik trouwens een grotere hekel aan het aanhoudende gezeur erover, het is net zo biased als b.v Indymedia..)

dan vraag me toch heel erg af waar je die ongezouten mening vandaan hebt?

TB or not TB

69

Re: Kraakverbod (mostly Dutch)

hehe, waar haal jij die van jou freek?

70 (edited by silver 2009-10-25 14:57:10)

Re: Kraakverbod (mostly Dutch)

Wat doe ik ook moeilijk eigenlijk; ik reageer wel weer als er iemand spreekt die niet de aanname maakt dat eenieder die niet met zijn denkbeelden verenigt gewoon niet nadenkt. Daar valt niet tegenop te boksen.

(.. voorts is het erg makkelijk om 1 ietwat geprikkelde uitspraak uit een stapel posts te vissen en daarop te blijven hameren, maar zoveel was al duidelijk denk ik ..)

hoi!

Re: Kraakverbod (mostly Dutch)

zip wrote:

hehe, waar haal jij die van jou freek?

ik heb zelf nooit gekraakt, maar heb vele jaren vertoeft in kraakpanden en veel van mijn vrienden kraken of kraakten, ik heb er iig veel positiefs aan te danken en het lijkt mij iedereen hier die de NLse acid/electro/techno scene een warm hart toedraagt. Natuurlijk heb ook mindere dingen gezien maar in mijn boekje staat de gemiddelde NLse kraker bekend als hardwerkend, betrokken en sociaal..

en bepaalde groepen crusty Italianen en Polen met zogenaamde idealen die panden totaal uitwonen ben ik ook liever kwijt dan rijk.. Maar dat wil niet zeggen dat een totaal subcultuur vebannen moet worden..

TB or not TB

Re: Kraakverbod (mostly Dutch)

silver wrote:

Wat doe ik ook moeilijk eigenlijk; ik reageer wel weer als er iemand spreekt die niet de aanname maakt dat eenieder die niet met zijn denkbeelden verenigt gewoon niet nadenkt. Daar valt niet tegenop te boksen.

(.. voorts is het erg makkelijk om 1 ietwat geprikkelde uitspraak uit een stapel posts te vissen en daarop te blijven hameren, maar zoveel was al duidelijk denk ik ..)

wil best in discussie gaan maar dan wel een beetje genuanceerd, nu krijg je de bal terug zoals je 'm kaatst..

TB or not TB

73 (edited by NoiZe 2009-10-25 15:50:27)

Re: Kraakverbod (mostly Dutch)

Freek wrote:
zip wrote:

hehe, waar haal jij die van jou freek?

ik heb zelf nooit gekraakt, maar heb vele jaren vertoeft in kraakpanden en veel van mijn vrienden kraken of kraakten, ik heb er iig veel positiefs aan te danken en het lijkt mij iedereen hier die de NLse acid/electro/techno scene een warm hart toedraagt. Natuurlijk heb ook mindere dingen gezien maar in mijn boekje staat de gemiddelde NLse kraker bekend als hardwerkend, betrokken en sociaal..

en bepaalde groepen crusty Italianen en Polen met zogenaamde idealen die panden totaal uitwonen ben ik ook liever kwijt dan rijk.. Maar dat wil niet zeggen dat een totaal subcultuur vebannen moet worden..

Goed gesproken.

Recente docu over anti-kraak met wat cijfermateriaal:
http://leegstandzonderzorgen.nl/web/node/1

Recente docu over kraken:
http://www.stoorzender.tv/Kraakverbod/K … _niet.html

Kraken, waarom niet?

NL 2009 25min.

Onder de naam Stoorzender produceerden een groep jonge filmmakers de film

Re: Kraakverbod (mostly Dutch)

zip wrote:

are there any figures about krakers etc.: how many krakers are there, how many buildings do they squat, how many square m's is that, how many people live on a m2 on average in a squatted building compared to social housing, how many and what kind of cultural things do they organize?

That's a good question. I don't have those numbers. For habitation the cities should have them, as for cultural events; I don't  think there is a single database of all of those. I agree with you that it would be a good idea to try to get those numbers; I wish there had been more attention to these factors in the big public debates on this.

i'm wondering about that because i read a couple of times now stuff like "there is only a small amount of squatters that ruins it for the good squatters" But who knows, isn't it the other way around? And how social are krakers, if they squat a building, do they always get the max out of it regarding cultural events and/or housing?

Yes. I think that the real troublemakers Silver is refering to consists mainly of a group of maybe a few dozen people -if that- in Amsterdam that have little or nothing to do with the larger scene. As for "always getting the most out of a building" I should point out that it's chiefly the larger places (former government buildings, etc) that host most cultural events. Those tend to have the space for such things and the manpower. If you look at for example the ORKZ (Oud Rooms Katholiek Ziekenhuis, a former hospital) in Groningen; about 250 people live there, they host a performance space, a restaurant a cinema (a real one, with proper film reels, etc) and more. The people living there are expected to also volunteer to help out in organising these or help with maintaining the building and infrastructure. Another example is "De illusie" here in The Hague (a former ministry) which hosts a lot of performances, a radio studio, a recording studio, artist workspaces, etc. There are more places like that. These typically compare quite favourably to the subsidised spots for alternative music that the government organises, both in how active they are and in the quality of the performances presented.

Most of the time when a normal house is squatted you don't see that much of that kind of thing though there are exceptions. "Andergrond" in The Hague is a small gallery in a normal house-sized building that hosts exhibitions, sells records, frequently hosts experimental performances and sometimes shows videos. I have yet to see a low-quality event there and very few of the things they host would find a place elsewhere. That's recognised by they city as they get some subsidy but chiefly it's a labour of love. 

Places like that present that kind of thing throughout the year while the mentioned incidents (with the paint, etc) are fairly rare, as far as I know. However, fights with the police tend to get a lot more news exposure than a evening of electro-acoustical improvisation to open a exhibition of photographs and video-art. Typically when squatters organise cultural events these are things they feel are under-represented so often not things that get a lot of mainstream interest. The films that ORKZ shows in their "kraakbios" are typically the ones that the large local cinemas don't touch because they aren't commercially viable for them (think arthouse, manga, etc).

I think this leads to a slanted media image. Still no exact numbers but I don't think anybody is claiming all major cities have regular violent conflicts between squatters and the police as those simply don't happen that much.

(off course squatters book better results at that than the property owners, but that doesn't say kraken is the best solution to the problem

I agree with you here. A similar role is filled by the "broedplaatsen", typically large empty buildings that the local government will make available to artists. These will also occasionally host exhibitions of their work, often combined with bands and DJ's. You could imagine that kind of thing being extended now. However even though kraken may not be the best solution, it is -right now- responsible for a huge chunk of the kind of event I mention above. I wouldn't be surprised if -for example- over half of the vegan restaurants in the country were organised by squatters (I'm not vegan either, but I do care about good food at low prices :-) ). There might be better solutions to both the question of space for cultural events, putting a halt to speculation on the housing market and the housing shortage in general and if one is found I'd be in favour of it. I just don't think we have seen one yet.

...just wondering, because from my point of view this whole discussion over here is just based on opinions until now...

I again agree. What I would like to point out though is that if there is any party outside of the squatters themselves that has a more or less clear picture of the situation (numerically speaking) it will be the councils of the larger cities. These, perhaps surprisingly, are not at all in favour of the new law that is currently being passed.

Not the hard numbers you were looking for but at least a more clear picture.

Re: Kraakverbod (mostly Dutch)

Freek wrote:

wil best in discussie gaan maar dan wel een beetje genuanceerd, nu krijg je de bal terug zoals je 'm kaatst..

Dit.

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