26 Reply by Brian Chinetti (edited by Brian Chinetti 2010-08-21 17:21:13)

  • Registered: 2008-07-07
  • Posts: 663

Re: The Dirt. And How To Get It.

rarara wrote:

anyone know of any portable tape recorders for either recording whole tracks or vinyl before loading it into my sampler? can you get good results from 80s style tape decks, or are we only talking about reel to reel being applicable here?

Basically any recorder will do, even cassette. But tape width is more narrow on cassette recorders and the tape speed is rather slow, so that can be problematic. Tape saturation is exactly what it says: when the signal is loud, more of the particles on the tape get magnetized, till it reaches a point where no particles are left to be magnetized. That's saturation. If you have more particles on the tape (cassette is only 1/8" wide, reel can go from 1/4" to 2" so they hold more particles), saturation will not occur as fast. Tape speed is another influence, tape recorders can run from 1 7/8 inch per second on consumer recorders to 30 ips on pro recorders, although for most 2 track reel recorders you'll find speeds of 7.5 and 15 ips, cassette winds only at 1 7/8ips.  The faster the tape winds over the record head, the less chance you make of saturating the tape. And then you have the formulation of the particles, some 'high output' formulas tend to saturate less then others, but they require different head alignments and some heads can't deal with 'high output' formulations and some recorders don't have the bias needed to (simply put) 'premagnetize' this kind of tape. 

Anyway, there are of course portable reel recorders, the Nagra is the most famous and is still in production and there was also the Uher 4200. But both were designed and best used for recording speech, the Nagra 4.2 for instance is still used in cinema.

And despite recorders do need attention, I do think that you could at least try it yourself with basically any old machine in semi decent condition, see what it does and then decide whether you should upgrade to something more worth while or not.

Brian Chinetti's Website

  • rude66
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Re: The Dirt. And How To Get It.

@freek: thats true, but if you use the 1/2 speed option and overdrive the inputs, there's still lots of fun to be had..

@kenza: i test that stuff for a living. so i do know most of them.. i'll ask you the other way around: have you ever worked with the hardware that is emulated by most of these plugins? if you have, you'll realize most are just a very weak knockoff where at most some of the characteristics are emulated.

and of course the developers will tell you that its possible to emulate old gear, they want to sell their stuff. i'm not saying that it'll never be possible or that some things are not very usable in their own right, just dont believe all the promo hype. you can emulate all the reisstors and capacitors you want, that doesn't mean it'll sound like the original.

i've heard the ''we're getting closer all the time'' mantra for the last 10 years, and in reality thats true, but not nearly as much as it should. the sad thing is that 99% of all people ranting and raving about how ''close'' plugins and vst synths are, have never actually even seen an original machine up close, let alone spent time working with it.

it actually has little to do with nostalgia that i use old machines.. of course that factor is there a little bit, but its 99% because they simply sound better or have a superior user interface. what a proper analogue desk (not a shitty mackie or behringer) or something like a studer a80 does to your mixes sounds infinitely better than  a direct computer recording mixed in the box..

28 Reply by Kenzaburo (edited by Kenzaburo 2010-08-22 12:06:17)

  • Registered: 2008-08-05
  • Posts: 463

Re: The Dirt. And How To Get It.

Yeah, most are or were weak knock-offs (sound nothing like the original) with fancy guis to attract the unsuspecting customer. Plug-ins have a bad rep. because of this but finally we are reaching a new level imho .. I never said it's 100% yet and for example tape emulation remains the holy grail for the time being ..

Actually once I visited a studio where we compared the Tube-Tech compressor CL1B (http://www.tube-tech.com/cl-1b-opto-com … 9.html#623) to the plug-in version by Softube. Just for kicks. The plug-in version is fully endorsed by the manufacturer and they worked together on it btw.. I didn't expect much from it but to our surprise there was _very_ little difference between the two. Otherwise I've laid my hands on a 1176 couple of times, the Api stuff, some Neve hardware.. I have a GSSL compressor in my studio. I did a comparison of the GSSL compressor to Cytomic Glue (another newish plug-in that should emulate SSL mix bus compressor) and did even audio comparisons .. I will check if I have the files still online. Verdict was that the plug-in was scarily close .. Of course GSSL is not exactly the same ..

And I know about the marketing hype ... All too well ..

I know that especially on forums (heh) there are people who rant and rave but have very little experience in working with the actual hardware. I don't claim that I know every bit of gear inside out that has been emulated but I think I have sufficient experience with analog hardware that I know how 'analog' sounds or should sound.. Then again, sound is a very subjective thing as we all know.

Of course studer sounds good (if it's well maintained and calibrated etc). One has to take into account also the convenience of working with plug-ins not to mention how inexpensive it is (yes I pay for my plug-ins).. That's why I'm embracing the digital technology and am excited about the developments .. Let's face it, working with hardware can be a PITA sometimes. Well computer can crash too etc of course wink

The point about interface is a good one .. That's why I like working with hardware synths

  • beem
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Re: The Dirt. And How To Get It.

oh god, didnt even plug this thing in and im in love.. im gonna need more MOOG!

CRACKED BY MR. Z...

beem's Website

  • From: Outer S.P.A.C.E.
  • Registered: 2008-07-07
  • Posts: 678

Re: The Dirt. And How To Get It.

rude66 wrote:

@freek: thats true, but if you use the 1/2 speed option and overdrive the inputs, there's still lots of fun to be had..

@kenza: i test that stuff for a living. so i do know most of them.. i'll ask you the other way around: have you ever worked with the hardware that is emulated by most of these plugins? if you have, you'll realize most are just a very weak knockoff where at most some of the characteristics are emulated.

and of course the developers will tell you that its possible to emulate old gear, they want to sell their stuff. i'm not saying that it'll never be possible or that some things are not very usable in their own right, just dont believe all the promo hype. you can emulate all the reisstors and capacitors you want, that doesn't mean it'll sound like the original.

i've heard the ''we're getting closer all the time'' mantra for the last 10 years, and in reality thats true, but not nearly as much as it should. the sad thing is that 99% of all people ranting and raving about how ''close'' plugins and vst synths are, have never actually even seen an original machine up close, let alone spent time working with it.

it actually has little to do with nostalgia that i use old machines.. of course that factor is there a little bit, but its 99% because they simply sound better or have a superior user interface. what a proper analogue desk (not a shitty mackie or behringer) or something like a studer a80 does to your mixes sounds infinitely better than  a direct computer recording mixed in the box..

Yeah right.

Monkey see, monkey do.

biotek's Website

  • Registered: 2008-08-04
  • Posts: 33

Re: The Dirt. And How To Get It.

Freek wrote:

for me its also hard to imagine plug-ins give authentic dirt.. its just emulation right?.. like pussy on a screen wink

I hadn't checked this thread in a while and I just had to say that's the best comparison I've ever heard  big_smile

Brilliant.

rude66 wrote:

a lot of the plugins mentioned here just crap up your sound. the trick is to get a little gritty sound, but still fat. real fat, not artificial limiter pumped up fat. and the only real way to get that sound is a tape recorder.. there is no plugin that emulates that effect even to a small degree.. its like digital distortion, that never quite gets there either..

I also find that the amount of f*%+ing around you have to do with plug-ins is really annoying I want to turn the kit on and get as close to what I want almost straight away.

  • beem
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Re: The Dirt. And How To Get It.

http://soundcloud.com/mtfbmx/roland-re- … on-machine

You can use the space echo as a pure tape saturation machine if you set it right.. And it sounds sweet!

CRACKED BY MR. Z...

beem's Website

33 Reply by Orbweaver (edited by Orbweaver 2010-12-05 05:03:07)

  • Registered: 2010-06-20
  • Posts: 228

Re: The Dirt. And How To Get It.

I've really been wanting to do some tape experiments lately all in the name of saturation. My main means of dirt is this girl here:
http://img576.imageshack.us/img576/200/img0877m.jpg
These things are showing up pretty reasonable on the 2nd hand. If anyone's thinking about a purchase, I say go for it.

Herman Gillis is a fucking genius
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqJZDq4ZpQc[/youtube]

I love that man smile

*edit*
I'm very stoned here and thought you guys were on about dirt and distortion and saturation as well. Seems as this was more tape oriented than distortion. Disregard any...............whatever. big_smile

  • From: washington dc
  • Registered: 2008-07-08
  • Posts: 515

Re: The Dirt. And How To Get It.

looks cool orbweaver! what's the name of it?

worship the potentiometer.

screenvinylimage's Website

  • Registered: 2010-06-20
  • Posts: 228

Re: The Dirt. And How To Get It.

ah...I was talking about the Sherman Filterbank.

  • rude66
  • robot des duivels
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Re: The Dirt. And How To Get It.

i had the rodec restyler here for a while, also designed by herman gillis. very cool machine too!

and of course Gillis was part of EBM band poesie noire, and the ''sherman'' in Morton, Sherman & Bellucci, responsible for almost all new beat classics..

  • Registered: 2010-06-20
  • Posts: 228

Re: The Dirt. And How To Get It.

I'd seen the restyler quite a bit but was never really clued in on it?

Gillis is a super nice guy as far as support goes, maybe second to Robert Honsbeek? I dunno, great builders none the less.